Curse

Engage · Jun 17, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

The following in an interesting read if you really want to discuss this subject.

"To be is to be perceived." - Berkeley

"… I am content to put the whole upon this issue; if you can but conceive it possible for one extended moveable substance, or in general, for any one idea or any thing like an idea, to exist otherwise than in a mind perceiving it, I shall readily give up the cause…. But say you, surely there is nothing easier than to imagine trees, for instance, in a park, or books existing in a closet, and no body by to perceive them. I answer, you may so, there is no difficulty in it: but what is all this, I beseech you, more than framing in your mind certain ideas which you call books and trees, and at the same time omitting to frame the idea of any one that may perceive them? But do not you your self perceive or think of them all the while? This therefore is nothing to the purpose: it only shows you have the power of imagining or forming ideas in your mind; but it doth not shew that you can conceive it possible, the objects of your thought may exist without the mind: to make out this, it is necessary that you conceive them existing unconceived or unthought of, which is a manifest repugnancy. When we do our utmost to conceive the existence of external bodies, we are all the while only contemplating our own ideas. But the mind taking no notice of itself, is deluded to think it can and doth conceive bodies existing unthought of or without the mind; though at the same time they are apprehended by or exist in it self." - Berkeley

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/berkeley/

pumpkin pie · Jun 17, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

/kick berkeley where it hurts for hurting my eyes.

as for the question, off course it make a sound.

MisterB · Jun 17, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by distilledwill

Sound is the name we give to the effect when the vibrations of the molecules in the air are interpreted by our ears (or, yes i suppose, the vibrations are picked up by some recording device). So, sound is socially constructed.

Does it make a SOUND? No
Does the air vibrate? Yes

Something is real if it is real in its consequences.
A sound has no consequence if noone hears it. The sound, therefore, is not real.

That is only one definition of sound. Another definition is:

Quote:

mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium (as air) and is the objective cause of hearing

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sound[3]

You can't say something makes no sound because of the definition of sound if the definition of sound includes a definition of the actual effect. That redundant sentence was redundant.

edit: Google says trees falling make a sound when no one is there to hear them, so it must be so.

Quote:

mechanical vibrations transmitted by an elastic medium; "falling trees make a sound in the forest even when no one is there to hear them"

makosi · Jun 17, 2009, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Think of it from a different perspective.

If a man talks in a forest and his wife is not around, is he still wrong?

Food for thought.

Inde · Jun 18, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

I'll pop in. Sound is subjective, I think a lot of you are confusing and mixing vibration for sound. No, it makes no sound.

pumpkin pie · Jun 18, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Think of it from a different perspective.

If a man talks in a forest and his wife is not around, is he still wrong?

Food for thought.

men are always wrong

so simple, do you need to ask?

sportacus · Jun 18, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

If it didn't make the sound, then one could argue that it didn't visibly change either (until someone came upon it to see it). Then, it would become a question of whether it actually fell, since it looks exactly the same and hasn't made any noise (despite nobody knowing this) - I'd say no. Using this logic, which I would, you could arrive at the conclusion that the fact that we know this tree has fallen down in the first place means that there was a sound that was made, and that the tree would have been seen falling down, had there been anyone/thing to observe it.

Don't argue my logic - tired people always know what they're talking about.

distilledwill · Jun 18, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

That is only one definition of sound.

We could argue semantics till the cows come home, by your definition it does, by mine it doesnt.

Maybe we should look at it in a quantum way. Shrodinger's tree: as we cannot observe the tree falling it is both simultaneously making a sound and not making a sound.

subarucar · Jun 19, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Most likely, just because nobody is there does not mean no sound is made, however there is some crazy small chance, that the three could make no noise at all, wether someone is there or not.
There is no proof that it made a sound, but if you could conduct a study of trees falling that make sound, and compare those to trees falling that make no sound, find the probability, then apply this to said tree.

Yang Whirlwind · Jun 19, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The question should be more interesting.

If three squirrels are in a forest having sex, and no one is around, do they make a sound? I don't even know if they make a sound when someone is around. Tricky.

The original OP question is an old and tired philosophical cliché.

This is a much more interesting question! My guess would be: yes!
- Squirrels doesn't seem like quit animals to me.
- Redheads are said to have aggressive tempers.
- A quit threesome seems like a contradiction.

Etta · Jun 19, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Redheads are said to have aggressive tempers.

That aggressive temper is also apply to the bedroom department, fact.

Cebe · Jun 19, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I'm going to go against most people and say no.

When a tree falls it creates vibrations which travel through the air, but as I understand it, if there is noone to turn those vibrations into something we can audibly detect and acknowledge as sound, I'm not convinced that if a tree falls and there is noone to hear it it does create a sound. This also goes for the argument about the microphone and tape recorder - it's basically an "ear substitute" for the purposes of this discussion.

My belief that unless something is there to turn the vibrations in the air into a format we can recognise as sound then they are just that; vibrations.

Of course you could argue that if there are vibrations then there is sound, but my feeling is that's a week argument since not all the components are there to convert the vibrations into sound, therefore that which is recognised as sound can't exist.

Etta · Jun 19, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Ok Cebe formerly know as Celestial Beaver. Listen here, if I farted and you didn't hear it, did I fart?

pumpkin pie · Jun 21, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Etta farted ....

daraaksii · Jun 21, 2009, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

Etta farted ....

"Who cares".

pumpkin pie · Jun 21, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

its answer to his question.

lol

Zan Usi Quan · Jun 23, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The question should be more interesting.

If three squirrels are in a forest having sex, and no one is around, do they make a sound? I don't even know if they make a sound when someone is around. Tricky.

My guess is you won't hear the 2 having sex, but the 3th eating a nut you WILL hear...

kazi_saki · Jun 24, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

I'm not so sure about this one but here goes :P

I think it does make vibrations but what makes the sound is when the vibrations are translated into our brains as sound. Therefore, when there is no one within earshot (lol), it doesn't make a sound, just meaningless vibration. Remember, all the things we feel are just our translations of whats happening around us I think.

edit: oops. I didn't see Cebe's post. I just repeated what he said lol. sorry!

pumpkin pie · Jun 24, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

No kazi saki, it does make a sound, the reason why most people including me says it does is because the question is asked wrongly.

should have ask: if you know fallen trees make sound, but you did not hear it, does the sound exist?

or

I see all the post being posted on this forum, but I've never seen anyone of you before in real life, do you people exist?

Do I exist?

Roy_ · Jun 24, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

No kazi saki, it does make a sound, the reason why most people including me says it does is because the question is asked wrongly.

should have ask: if you know fallen trees make sound, but you did not hear it, does the sound exist?

or

I see all the post being posted on this forum, but I've never seen anyone of you before in real life, do you people exist?

Do I exist?

You don't have too. For all we know you aren't real. The Board that we are posting on isn't real and our feeble fabrication of the world isn't real.

For all we know not one of us is truly existent at all. A philosopher once said "I think, therefor I am", but is that truly so? We think, yes, and we have self awareness. Does that make us real though?

Philosophy cannot be debated because none of it can be proven.

Oh and by the way, the question WAS asked wrong, the proper question is...

If a tree falls in the forest, and nothing is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?